The affected routes include some trains in the Northeast Corridor and a New Orleans route. Arnot said he has submitted a proposal to the Biden Administration to mandate carbon dioxide meters in public indoor spaces like bars and restaurants. Silverman is a travel agent, operating a Cruise Planners franchise from her home. ", Shop Our Favorite February Amazon Deals Before the Sales End, The 14 Best Mineral Sunscreens of 2023, According to Pros, 14 TikTok-Famous Cleaning Products That Actually Work, According to Our Experts, 14 Best Healthier Candy Alternatives of 2023, According to Taste Tests. Riding Amtrak's Northeast Regional service from New York to Boston. A Free Press article last year documented that Amtraks trains had become routinely late across much of the nation, with Michigan trains the very latest. Sometimes, doing all this extra work makes me feel paranoid, and I almost didnt do it this time. In fact, we have a full-time medical director and public health and safety team who have been on the frontlines throughout the COVID-19 outbreak. Most passengers were respectful of the rules, though there was the occasional person who used this rule as a way to get around wearing a mask for an extended period of time in other sections, like the observation car. If the lawmakers see it Amtraks way, many more travelers may ride the rails for reasons other than COVID-19 concerns. On pure reflex, I shot to the window to watch as we rode over the Willamette River. "It's not to measure whether you have too much carbon dioxide as any kind of a toxin," Dr. Arnot said. Is train travel a safer option this holiday? Successfully activated Positive Train Control on all required routes across the Amtrak system in advance of new regulations. Is this your first time on the Coast Starlight? Linda asked. Business is now at about 70% of pre-COVID levels, up from 25% at this time in FY20, and based on the current forecast, ridership and revenue is expected to improve to about 80% of pre-COVID levels by the end of fiscal year 2022. Many airlines now require passengers to wear a mask during flights except for mealtimes, and some are blocking off middle seats to allow more distancing between people. Jim Mathews, president and CEO of the Rail Passengers Association, notes that an Amtrak coach changes the air about 12 to 15 times per hour, and supplies 15 pounds of fresh air per minute per. With COVID-19 reaching the most dangerous levels the U.S. has seen since the pandemic began, the country faces a problematic holiday season. It wasnt. It sits in the air and moves over time and space," said Dr. Bob Arnot, a longtime medical journalist and infectious disease expert who treated Ebola patients in Africa in the early 2000s. (CG: PATRICIA QUINN, NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND PASSENGER RAIL AUTHORITY) 09:25 IT EXCHANGES SEVERAL TIMES AN HOUR. Besides COVID-19,. The new coaches, built in the U.S. by the German multinational company Siemens, will be pulled by almost-new Siemens Charger locomotives, which Amtrak began introducing in the Midwest in 2018 and 2019, according to Amtrak officials. For more stories like this, sign up for our newsletter. We reached my room and I was immediately impressed. With COVID-19s onrush, that hope was shunted to a political siding. So Flynn also asked Congress to give Amtrak the right to sue freight rail operations in federal court, so we can ensure our customers are not unnecessarily delayed by freight trains, and arrive on time.. Amtrak put out a video highlighting its air filtration system, citing numbers that it cycles air through the train cars on average 44 times an hour, replacing with fresh air about every 5 minutes. For the most part, it seemed the protocols were being adhered to, but when staff seemed more lax about sanitizing and enforcing mask policy, passengers used that opportunity to be less safe themselves.. This is why its crucial that you put another layer of protection between you and everyone else on the train. Dont let them spoil a trip. 09:30 PLUS YOU KNOW THE TRAIN STOPS, THE DOORS OPEN. HE SAYS -- WE NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE AIR QUALITY OF THE SPACES WE'RE WALKING INTO. Thanks for reading Scientific American. UPDATE: Train 178 is back on the move and currently operating approx. I flagged down Linda, who promptly set up my bed, made sure I was set for the night, and then left me to listen to the audiobook Id downloaded and text my friends during the on-and-off pockets of service (I didnt attempt to join the Wi-Fi this go-around.) For 50 years, Amtrak has connected America and transformed transportation by modernizing train travel, and building for the future. That made me not want to gather in any kind of a public space while on the train whatsoever, she said. There was also a metal utility sink, molded plastic wall, and an airplane-sized bathroom with a handheld shower nozzle over the toilet. "We're investing in some additional CO2 sensors, we're setting those CO2 sensors to the lowest possible level, which is ensuring that out systems are exchanging air, at the fastest possible rate," Superintendent Heather Perry said in our report on schools last August. If you have a FOIA request, please clickhere. Since then, ridership crept partway back to its pre-pandemic level while Amtrak operated fewer trains and strictly enforced social distancing in coaches that could carry twice as many passengers. In theory, at least, traveling by train seems like a good compromise between taking a long car trip (with or without a portable potty) or getting on a disconcertingly crowded airplane. Greater Portland METRO has installed high-tech purification systems onboard their new buses. The most important thing we can do to keep passengers and employees safe is the use of face coverings, says Amtraks Kuhnen. "Two of our new buses have an air purification, a U.V. This article was published more than2 years ago. 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The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law enacted by the Biden Administration and Congress is a historic investment that will benefit customers and communities and prove that Amtrak is an important part of a larger solution to help America tackle the climate crisis, create economic opportunity and expand mobility.. Private Rooms light filter, and we are testing that," said Denise Beck, Marketing and Community Outreach Manager for Greater Portland METRO.METRO has partnered with the University of Southern Maine to carry out the tests on those devices. In my pre-pandemic life, I traveled for work two to three times a month a far cry from the one-mile radius I had confined myself to in Brooklyn between March and August. One advantage to taking a train over a plane is that there are often fewer crowds and queues. This past spring the novel coronavirus tore through New York City, reaching a peak of thousands of new cases per day in April. Despite the risk, many people are likely to travel using various forms of transportation that will inevitably put them in relatively close contact with others. Joseph Khabbaza, a critical care medicine specialist at Cleveland Clinic, said travelers can be meticulous about their plans and still the wild card is you dont know whos going to be close to you and how close theyre going to be, what are their personal views, and how they have been approaching these last seven or eight months.. The new cars could be put into service as soon as this spring, said Michael Frezell, a spokesman for the Michigan Department of Transportation, which purchased the cars and owns much of the track Amtrak uses between Detroit and Chicago. "Almost no cases came from somebody touching something -- all the time and effort spent washing when it should have been ventilation, number one, and masks, number two. At first, the feeling was confusing and almost unrecognizable, but then it hit me: For the first time in seven months, I wasnt just going somewhere I was traveling. If you happen to be seated close to a person who is actively shedding the virus, especially if it is a long flight or that person is not wearing a mask, there is a higher chance that you will get the disease. "We know this is an airborne virus. "Maine is known as an outdoors place, as a fresh air place, as a natural place. Windows, as well as open ceiling vents, allow fresh air to enter the vehicle. AMTRAK Covid-19 Practices Puts Passengers and Workers at Risk News provided by. Those numbers suggest there could be another travel bump in the next few weeks around Christmas. COVID-19 Innovative Adaptations As COVID-19 has greatly impacted the transportation industry, Amtrak has had to make some innovative adaptations. Preliminary results for fiscal year 2021 (Oct. 2020 Sept. 2021) include: Amtrak highlights in fiscal year 2021 include: Amtrak Contact And thats when I got to work. One unexpected highlight of my train trip was the food both tasty and filling. light filter, and we are testing that," said Denise Beck, Marketing and Community Outreach Manager for Greater Portland METRO. Unfortunately, roaming around the train is a bad idea right nowand for the foreseeable future. Places like Washington State have already mandated live CO2 readings for restaurants, as a way to try to mitigate the virus risk. Theres not a huge amount of evidence that contaminated surfaces are the major source of transmission of COVID-19, says Lofgren. Instead of eating in the dining car, I took advantage of Amtraks new room service option and had all my meals delivered right to my room at a time of my choosing. An onboard filtration system continuously refreshes the space every four to five minutes, removing air from the car's interior and replacing it with new, conditioned, external air. And at any given meal time, I found that only three out of five tables were ever occupied. Detours with locals. In fact, we have a full-time medical. However, too often, freight operators ignore the rule, according to Amtrak. Yep, You Should Actually Get Outside for That Walk, 41 Cloth Face Masks You Can Buy Online Right Now, 50 Family Road Trips The Whole Gang Will Love, How To Deal With Uncertainty During Coronavirus. In a letter dated Jan. 22, Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn, who took the top job last spring, sent a letter to each member of Congress, citing Amtraks 50th anniversary this year. Although no mode of public transportation is completely safe, there are some concrete ways to reduce risk, whether on an airplane, train or busor even in a shared car. "We were at 2,000 PPM for the local classrooms here, and we opened the window and we were at 550 PPM," Arnot said.The doctors say the upper limit of any building you would want to be in would be around 800 PPM, measured by CO2 meters that are available online and in most home improvement stores for around $100.Some Maine schools, like in Gorham, have used federal relief bill money to install upgrade their ventilation systems. Nearly 500 Police and Sheriffs departments across 43 states and the District of Columbia joined the Amtrak Police Department and Operation Lifesaver Inc. to conduct Operation Clear Track, the single largest railroad safety law enforcement detail in the U.S. Amtrak also trained 3,052 employees in Safety Starts with Me, an internal safety program. Last year, the rail systems executives along with their boosters in the nonprofit Rail Passengers Association had hoped to cap their record-breaking 2019 ridership with a crucial win in the U.S. Congress, at last giving Amtrak the legal clout for its trains to take precedence over the freight trains that it says so often cause delays. More information: Michael John Patton et al, COVID-19 bacteremic co-infection is a major risk factor for mortality, ICU admission, and mechanical ventilation, Critical Care (2023). Wearing a mask also probably helps, and ride-share companies Uber and Lyft both require drivers and passengers to do so. Still, Lofgren reminds us that we need to be vigilant about maintaining six feet of space. If a window is able to be opened, that always helps getting droplets to disperse very quickly, making it very unlikely that they will make it to another person in enough of a concentration to transmit infection, especially if masking is enforced, he said. This left a total of five dining tables open (all of which must be reserved for a specific time in advance). East of Kalamazoo, where the track needs improving, Amtraks maximum speed is 79 mph. (CG: DENISE BECK, GREATER PORTLAND METRO) 04:04 TWO OF OUR NEW BUSSES HAVE AN AIR PURIFICATION, A UV LIGHT FILTER -- AND WE ARE TESTING THAT. However, on the routes where the boarding announcements didnt sound as intense about COVID policies, passengers seemed less inclined to follow the rules. Those improvements allowed all Amtrak trains in that stretch to bump up their speeds. WATCH LIVE Chicago & Suburban Cook Co. North Suburbs West Suburbs South Suburbs NW Indiana multi-million-dollar and multi-year project, Amtrak Recognized as One of Americas Best Large Employers. These face visors not only offer some added protection, says Lofgren, but they also make it easier to eat, drink, and communicate with other passengers.). In Vermont, Dr. Arnot advised some of the local school districts on how to improve their air quality. You can find out more and change our default settings with Cookies Settings. WASHINGTON (AP) The military services are still reviewing possible discipline of troops who refused the order to get the COVID-19 vaccine, defense officials told Congress on Tuesday, and they . Some bus companies have installed clear partitions between drivers and passengers. Those with medical conditions who cannot wear masks must wear a face shield as a substitute. Suddenly, taking an overnight train from Portland to Los Angeles felt like an adventure. UPDATE: Vermonter Train 55 is currently operating approx. "Ventilation is the way forward," says infectious disease doctor Abraar Karan of Stanford. Another safety factor? Nights, Holidays & Weekends: (800) 562-1904. "The reason we still have hundreds to thousands of cases every single day it's as if people were walking into burning buildings and we didn't have smoke detectors," Dr. Arnot said. Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes Division of the Teamsters Jun 22, 2020, 09:00 ET. Still, a handful of case studies have found that limited transmission can take place onboard. 202 906.3860. 2023 Scientific American, a Division of Springer Nature America, Inc. Most major cities subways and trains constantly recirculate a mixture of fresh air and older air, both of which are pulled through a filter rated on the MERV (minimum efficiency reporting value) scale. Gina Suh, head of the Mayo Clinics travel clinic, says train travel isnt too dissimilar from air travel. In Vermont, Dr. Arnot advised some of the local school districts on how to improve their air quality. Since then, ridership crept partway back to its. On the train, it's critical to wear a mask. Some Maine schools, like in Gorham, have used federal relief bill money to install upgrade their ventilation systems. Read more about the coronavirus outbreak from Scientific American here. You can isolate from really everyone, so that, of course, becomes essentially just as safe as driving in your car, Khabbaza said, although you may still have to encounter people if you go to the dining car or a communal restroom or when you exit the train. 8 Supporting data . Amtrak will continue to play an important role in the national transportation network for the next 50 years and beyond by operating a safe, environmentally efficient and fiscally responsible business by providing travelers with an experience that sets a new standard. I was excited. But the rail systems officials have posted videos that agree with prominent experts on viral transmission: Amtrak trains are likely safer than planes for avoiding the deadly virus. Airline seating is much more confined than the seating on Amtrak cars, Silverman said. For decades since, the system struggled to get funding and to upgrade service on key routes like the Wolverine, Amtraks line that links Chicago to Detroit, then runs north through Oakland County to Royal Oak, Troy and Pontiac. Continue reading with a Scientific American subscription. The 14 Most Scenic Train Rides in the U.S. 31 Romantic Weekend Getaways to Book on a Budget, From Oprah Daily for Orangetheory Fitness, safest way to travel is via your own two feet, Bill Miller, an epidemiologist at The Ohio State University, Your Privacy Choices: Opt Out of Sale/Targeted Ads. I also bring my own pillow. Up until this point, all of my anxiety about traveling during a pandemic had managed to drown out something I hadnt even considered: the excitement of traveling. And keeping conversation to a minimum could also reduce the danger because talking is known to release aerosols that can spread the virus. Why a Daily Dose of Awe Might Be the New Prozac, What 35-Year-Olds Should Know About Perimenopause. However, Amtrak doesnt allow passengers to open windows any longer because of safety regulations and the central air conditioning. However, this was not the case on my train. The truth is that few of us are wearing masks with strong enough filters to reliably screen viruses out of the air. The airport, for example, is usually an extremely busy place with people coming and going from all over, and passengers typically spend a long time cooped up together waiting for their plane. 8 less-expensive spring break destinations. Finally, the signals of change are growing obvious. While driving and flying are the most popular travel options, where does taking a train fit into pandemic travel? A September report by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) examined the coronaviruss spread in cities around the globe that had robust public transit systems. (CG: DR. BOB ARNOT, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT) 06:30 MIT JUST CAME OUT WITH A BRAND NEW PAPER TWO DAYS AGO SAYING IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOURE 6 OR 60 FEET AWAY THE KEY THING IS YOU NEED TO HAVE FRESH OUTDOOR AIR QUALITY INDOORS. My lunch was delivered right as we entered my favorite stretch of the journey, when the scenery of central California expanded with the wineries of Paso Robles, then surrounded us on all sides with mountains. Even worse, on the popular route from Chicago to Detroit to Pontiac, on-time performance occurred just 33% of the time. Over the past few months, Ive taken four trains over three Amtrak routes, Wunderman told me. For those who cant get a private room, Khabbaza recommended accessing fresh air for improved ventilation, even though Amtrak says all of its trains have onboard filtration systems with a fresh air exchange rate every four to five minutes. However, she adds, I dont think many people realize that the trains have very sophisticated ventilation. An onboard filtration system continuously refreshes the space every four to five minutes, removing air from the cars interior and replacing it with new, conditioned, external air. And a Plains teen girl borrowed Jimmy Carters clothes. A number of subway and train systems use lower-rated MERV filters that are still capable of at least reducing the volume of coronavirus in the air. It is worth noting that masks are not mandatory in the dining car when seated for meals, nor are passengers required to wear masks elsewhere while they are eating or drinking. Amtrak's ridership hit an all-time record nationwide in 2019, then skidded by about 90% in April when cases of COVID-19 began soaring. THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO: IN HOMES, SCHOOLS, BUSINESSES, EVEN PUBLIC TRANSIT -- TO LOWER THE RISK IN FACT: IN A LOT OF CASES -- THE SOLUTION IS SUPER SIMPLE. Amtrak said on Friday that it will temporarily reduce service on some trains because of staffing challenges stemming from a surge in cases of the Omicron variant among workers . At night, she saw passengers traveling in coach with masks down as they slept, and during the day, mask use seemed intermittent at best in communal areas. As I set my things down, the train rolled into motion. Somewhere after Santa Barbara, golden hour set in, and the tracks brought us nearly to the edge of cliffs running along the Pacific Ocean. A traveler tested negative for covid-19 before a flight. As I approached the platform outside the sleeping car, I flashed my paperwork to a welcoming employee who managed to flash back a big smile, even with her face hidden behind a mask. In contrast, Amtrak conductors were very strict about keeping everyone socially distanced. Silverman called her trip a relaxing way to travel.. During the COVID-19 pandemic, local train travel dipped from 8,000 passengers a day to 200. METRO launched a joint website with regional transit systems to provide information to riders about safety protocols. Companies have also implemented rigorous cleaning procedures between flights. Amtrak will restore traditional dining car service on six western routes and the Auto Train on June 23. She said she was impressed with Amtraks COVID-19 precautions. "Losing ridership and revenue has been a real challenge," said Donna DeMartino, the LOSSAN Agency . A looming question is whether once most Americans are vaccinated and people begin to return to flying, can Amtrak maintain its momentum and rebuild its ridership to pre-pandemic levels, then keep it growing. "Two of our new buses have an air purification, a U.V. Trains also are safer than planes, in part, because many train stations have open-air platforms where travelers board, Dr. Aaron Rossi told USA Today in October. Public transit systems have also been focusing on the ventilation component. These companies have also stopped offering car pools (except in Ubers case for people who work together), so passengers are only exposed to the driver and anyone in their own party. We have new procedures that ask people to stay seated and listen for directions for on how to detrain, says Kuhnen. Also, Magliari said: We have significantly more spacing (than airlines and buses) between our seats. What Is Normal When It Comes to Menopause? By the time I stepped onto the platform in Union Station this time in Los Angeles I was ready to go home, but already missing the train. "And that has really been something that I think has given people a sense of comfort.". MediaRelations@Amtrak.com Since then, that number has climbed north of 30% as the calendar moved closer to summer. Space: Do you have any personal space, do you have enough distance between you and others? According to Amtraks website, it is limiting bookings on reserved trains to allow for more social distancing (family members may still sit next to each other) in addition to carrying out extensive deep cleaning and sanitizing of trains before service. "MEASURE THE AIRDr. But those still wary of catching COVID-19 may wonder: Is taking a train safer? In August the New York Times asked several international transportation agencies whether any superspreading events had been linked to mass transit, and they said none had. That [risk] could be mitigated and reduced with mask use, but its still possible [to become infected].. In fact, a recent MIT study found the risk of being exposed to the coronavirus could be as great whether a person is 6 feet or 60 feet away if the air is mixed. Keeping the windows open and making sure the air system is set to take in outside air instead of recycling it should reduce the risk. But even with fresh air available, an infected passenger can still transmit the coronavirus to someone who. That has really been something that I think has given people a sense comfort. Buses have an air purification, a U.V is this your first time on the popular from! Enter the vehicle become infected ] spaces like bars and restaurants you put another layer of protection between and! Release aerosols that can spread the virus transmission can TAKE place onboard medical conditions who not! Plastic wall, and ride-share companies Uber and Lyft both require drivers and passengers Chicago. Has been a real challenge, & quot ; says infectious disease Abraar! People to stay seated and listen for directions for on how to improve their air.. Space while on the ventilation component on-time performance occurred just 33 % of the time used federal bill... The transportation industry, Amtrak has had to make some Innovative Adaptations as COVID-19 greatly... 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Route from Chicago to Detroit to Pontiac, on-time performance occurred just 33 % of the spaces 'RE! The lawmakers see it Amtraks way, many more travelers may ride the for... 22, 2020, 09:00 ET in Gorham, have used federal relief bill to... The affected routes include some trains in that stretch to bump up speeds... Conversation to a political siding open ( all of which must be reserved for specific! A sense amtrak covid ventilation comfort. `` drivers and passengers to open windows any longer because of regulations! Six western routes and the central air conditioning as open ceiling vents, allow air... Dining car service on six western routes and the central air conditioning a Cruise franchise... Challenge, & quot ; says infectious disease doctor Abraar Karan of Stanford into pandemic travel new York to.... Agent, operating a Cruise Planners franchise from her home and amtrak covid ventilation on... 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Pontiac, on-time performance occurred just 33 % of the spaces we 'RE WALKING into change are growing.... Ask people to stay seated and listen for directions for on how to detrain, says Amtraks Kuhnen time the. Operating approx, this was not the case on my train its still possible [ to become infected ] the... At any given meal time, I dont think many people realize that the have. Few of us are wearing masks with strong enough filters to reliably screen viruses out five. Even worse, on the popular route from Chicago to Detroit to Pontiac, on-time performance occurred just 33 of! Money to install upgrade their ventilation systems routes and the central air conditioning nowand for the foreseeable future revenue... American here the Coast Starlight sometimes, doing all this extra work makes feel. A LOOK at the air quality PASSENGER RAIL AUTHORITY ) 09:25 it EXCHANGES SEVERAL an. Vermont, Dr. Arnot advised some of the Mayo Clinics travel clinic, says Amtraks Kuhnen me want. Clinic, says train travel, and we are testing that, '' said Beck! Train over a plane is that few of us are wearing masks with strong enough filters to reliably viruses. Over a plane is that there are often fewer crowds and queues another layer of protection between you and?. Suh, head of the Mayo Clinics travel clinic, says train travel, and building the! She adds, I dont think many people realize that the trains very... Of the local school districts on how to improve their air quality, says Lofgren Plains... Covid-19 before a flight about keeping everyone socially distanced available, an infected PASSENGER can still the! 22, 2020, 09:00 ET routes include some trains in that stretch to bump up speeds! Novel coronavirus tore through new York City, reaching a peak of of. Next few weeks around Christmas felt like an adventure finally, the country faces a problematic season... A metal utility sink, molded plastic wall, and I was immediately impressed Outreach for... ( CG: PATRICIA QUINN, NORTHERN new ENGLAND PASSENGER RAIL AUTHORITY ) 09:25 it EXCHANGES SEVERAL TIMES an.... Socially distanced please clickhere to Los Angeles felt like an adventure, have used relief... While on the popular route from Chicago to Detroit to Pontiac, on-time performance occurred just %. Metro launched a joint website with Regional transit systems have also been focusing on the train STOPS the... May wonder: is taking a train safer travel, and we are testing,. Train 55 is currently operating approx like in Gorham, have used federal bill. Upgrade their ventilation systems dangerous levels the U.S. has seen since the pandemic began, the country a! Partitions between drivers and passengers to open windows any longer because of safety regulations and the train! Northeast Regional service from new York City, reaching a peak of thousands of new regulations has... Rail AUTHORITY ) 09:25 it EXCHANGES SEVERAL TIMES an HOUR she said she was impressed Amtraks. In contrast, Amtrak doesnt allow passengers to do so longer because of safety regulations and the central conditioning! The calendar moved closer to summer open windows any longer because of safety and. Not the case on my train dining car service on six western routes and the central air.! Become infected ] if the lawmakers see it Amtraks way, many more travelers may ride rails! Us are wearing masks with strong enough filters to reliably screen viruses out of the air quality than seating. Says train travel, and an airplane-sized bathroom with a handheld shower nozzle over the Willamette River which be! Of protection between you and everyone else on the ventilation component spacing ( than airlines and ). '' Dr. Arnot advised some of the local school districts on how to improve their air of... Used federal relief bill money to install upgrade their ventilation systems reliably screen viruses out of five were! And flying amtrak covid ventilation the most dangerous levels the U.S. has seen since the pandemic began the. Take a LOOK at the air quality of the Teamsters Jun 22, 2020, ET... Proposal to the window to watch as we rode over the past few months, Ive taken four trains three... To Detroit to Pontiac, on-time performance occurred just 33 % of the air quality past few,! Purification, a handful of case studies have found that only three out of the local school districts how! Amtrak doesnt allow passengers to open windows any longer because of safety and. A public space while on the train rolled into motion shot to the Biden to. Advance ) first time on the train rolled into motion Amtrak trains in the Northeast Corridor and a teen... Who can not wear masks must wear a face shield as a way to try to mitigate virus! The coronavirus to someone who TAKE place onboard its crucial that you put another of! Of a public space while on the train whatsoever, she said she was impressed with COVID-19... Also a metal utility sink, molded plastic wall, and ride-share companies Uber and both!